Join Jason Hartman and co-founder and director of Neuro Leadership Institute, Dr. David Rock, as they explore conceptual issues of the brain as it pertains to work, such as focus, managing distractions, why our brains feel taxed, and how to maximize mental resources. Listen at: www.SpeakingofWealth.com. Dr. Rock explains how being able to get a mental picture makes it easier to process and hold information, but when you can’t come up with a mental picture, you’re more likely to lose your train of thought or have more difficulty retaining connections, causing the brain more stress. Dr. Rock also discusses optimal times for scheduling work, meetings, and undisturbed workspace. He stresses that creative work needs a lot of space in the brain, as well as a lot of quiet. “Creative work first, urgent/important second, and everything else after,” says Dr. Rock. Dr. Rock also shares the many types of quirks of the brain, such as a blue room with high ceilings increases creativity, or changing rooms actually makes it difficult to access memories formed in the previous room. His suggestion is that people need to create their own workspace. Additionally, he talks about the unconscious and conscious brain and how breakthrough moments tend to happen when trying to solve a difficult problem. The quiet brain is most important for solving problems. Dr. Rock delves into the five domains that the brain is always tracking. It is very important that we don’t get a “threat” response in any of these domains because they activate the brain’s pain network, leading to defensiveness.
David is the founder and CEO of Results Coaching Systems (RCS), which has operations in 15 countries across the globe. In his capacity as CEO, David works with Fortune 500 clients specializing in embedding internal coaching capacity within organizations to develop leaders, retain talent, improve performance, and change culture. David Rock is one of the thought leaders in the global coaching profession. The integrated coaching system he developed in the mid-90′s has been taught to over 10,000 professionals in more than fifteen countries. He is the author of Personal Best, (Simon & Schuster, 2001), Quiet Leadership (Harper Collins, 2006) and Coaching with the Brain in Mind (Wiley & Sons, 2009), and Your Brain at Work (Harper Collins), which came out in October 2009. In 2004, David founded the brain-based approach to coaching, which has gathered momentum as a theory base for coaching ever since. In collaboration with several leading neuroscientists, David is working to explain the neural basis of issues like self-awareness, reflection, insight and accountability. In 2006, he co-authored a feature article in strategy business magazine with neuroscientist Dr Jeffrey Schwartz, called “The Neuroscience of Leadership”, the most downloaded article of the year at the magazine. In September 2006, CIO magazine ran a cover story featuring David and Jeff’s work called “The New Science of Change”. In late 2006, David founded the NeuroLeadership Institute and Summit, a global initiative bringing neuroscientists and leadership experts together to build a new science of leadership development. David also co-created a complete coaching curriculum at New York University (SCPS) and is a guest lecturer at universities in 5 countries.
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Jason Hartman: Welcome to today’s show. This is Jason Hartman your host, and as you may or may not know every 10th show we kind of do a special tradition here that originated with my Creating Wealth Show where we do a topic that is actually off topic on purpose. Something just to do with general life, and more successful living, and that’s exactly what we are going to do today with our special guest.
Again 10th show is off topic, and it is very much intentional just for personal enrichment, and I hope you enjoy today’s show. And we will be back with our guest in just a moment.
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Jason Hartman: My pleasure to welcome Dr. David Rock to this show. He is the author of your Brain at Work, Strategies for Overcoming Distraction, Regaining Focus, and Working Smarter all Day Long. I know this is a topic we can all benefit from. Especially yours truly so I think this will be an interesting interview. David is co-founder and director of the NeuroLeadership Institute, and they are all about breaking new ground in our capacity to improve thinking and performance, and he is also founder and CEO of Results Coaching Systems. David, welcome, how are you?
David: Very good, thanks very much for your interest in my work.
Jason Hartman: Good and you are coming to us from New York City, right?
David: I am, I am in lovely downtown Manhattan where I live, and I’m originally Australian, but I live in New York City. It’s a great city.
Jason Hartman: We would have never guessed that from your accent, just kidding. Fantastic accent, so David tell us a little bit about how we can be more effective, I mean everybody especially in today’s world is constantly played by distractions, complexities. And it’s tough to focus nowadays with looking at multiple computer screens, and then you’ve got your digital handheld device near you probably, and plus people in the room. There is a lot going on.
David: Absolutely. I mean our brain is really very, very different to how the kind of the people who organize companies would like it to be. Our brain is not the brain that sort of interior designers think it is. We cannot focus. We’ve just a few people looking at us never mind dancing screens. We can’t focus very well at all if this; if it were the way people are watching this.
We can’t focus very well if it’s just a printer icon flashing on that screen. Its very, very easy to distract people from especially from a trained thought that is kind of conceptual when you — when something is run in front of you, you can think about it, you can talk about it. When something is conceptual like to the future, or you haven’t seen it before it’s a concept like an interest rate, or a new product, or a new hire, or concepts don’t fit very well in the brain. It take a lot of effort to hold and its very easily displaced because it takes so much effort, so its very, very difficult to focus on the kind of conceptual work we are all doing with any kind of distraction.
The truth is companies are making some shocking mistakes with that they just you know physically layout and organized kind of spaces in other things, yeah.
Jason Hartman: Very interesting. So you are saying I just wanted to touch on the concept point that you made because I’m not sure people understand what do you mean by concept, so you mean as opposed to task oriented thinking that’s much simpler where as conceptual thinking our brains need to put multiple perks together and reject them into the future, and that’s much more taxing on the brain. Is that what you are saying?
David: Well, it’s more like this. If I had you picture your mother, she is going to come to mind pretty easily and if I asked you questions about the relationship of your mother, you know you can think about that easily. First I picture your car, you can picture that pretty easily, or picturing an elephant, you know you can picture that pretty easily. But if I say picture where you will be in three months time —
Jason Hartman: That’s much harder to picture right.
David: It’s much harder. It’s a concept. It’s not a physical object in the world. And when we process anytime information we have to hold it in mind. And holding something in mind, it has essentially two parts. It’s called the working memory. It has two parts. There is an audio and a visual part basically.
The visual working memory is dramatically more robust, a lot more circuitry involved. And you could hold a lot more information in the picture than you can in a sound, and so our visual circuitry is really strong. But when you can’t picture something easily you are going to have a robust circuit, and it takes a lot of effort to hold that circuit in mind.
And so your picture will be in three months. And then you know and a phone rings next to you and you certainly lost your chain of thought. You are much more likely to lose that chain of thought than if I say a picture of your car, you would be able to hold that chain of thought for the distraction, and it’s the level of effort involved in holding the circuit together, so essentially we are dealing in concepts these days. Very few people sell physical sell or pickup and move, or deal with physical objects in the world so much. We are dealing with concepts.
Jason Hartman: Right so this is any things like that. That’s a good point, good point.
David: Exactly things we don’t see, so it’s much how to process all that.
Jason Hartman: So it’s interesting you know well first may be you can tell us about when you talk about how workspace is laid out for all people, what mistakes do you see individuals and companies making as in terms of how they lay out their workspace, what keeps them from being focused?
David: Yeah I mean it’s an excellent question. We did a survey recently with an organization we got 6000 employees to respond to a set of questions about physical space, but the biggest insight came from the sort of overarching questions, and we ask people how many of you do your best thinking at work, and just to they remind this is in the company that I work there who it is. but its in the company with people are really paid to think, so they go to work, they are supposed to be thinking, so literally in the place where they are supposed to be doing their work, I have asked them the question how many of you actually can do quality work at that place? And the answer was 10%. So, one in 10 people we actually find going to work with a good place to get work done. That’s crazy, right.
Jason Hartman: Terrible, bad odds.
David: It’s insane. I mean so just close the office. It’s like people coming one in every ten days perhaps or one in every ten people should come in. I don’t know what, but its crazy when you think about it, so we — I wrote a blog called, a post called How Companies Spend Big Dollars Making People Less Effective, and there is a lot of organizations really don’t understand the basic nature of human functioning and do some crazy things. Now, Steve Jobs is been on the media a lot lately. And he is an amazing man for many, many reasons. But one of the reasons that he has not talked about much is he was an observer of human nature.
He was a meditator, and into all sorts of spiritual things. But what he was ultimately about what was observing human nature, and he was very successful at noticing quirks that other people didn’t notice such as people like things really simple. People don’t want to have to think. We like stuff to be intuitive and natural. Now, certainly there are muffins around. You know he observed human functioning. Now, if you have to go into an office and observe human behavior what you will see is in any kind of office its even vaguely have been planned. You will see around with their headsets in trying to shut up well, so they can focus.
And if you ask people sort of, and you observe across a day, you will notice that people are doing a couple of hours of sort of really good work in the morning, and then that’s pretty much it for the day, so there are pretty obvious patterns that we need to be shot the world out. And we can only really do quality work for few hours a day in the mornings, so it sort of starts to have you question well, how should we design company physically? If that’s the way that human brain functions and the answer is we should not schedule meetings, and not be answering emails in the morning.
In the morning, we should be leaving at times for creative work, and actually producing things. And we should do the afternoon meetings to help each other to stay awake, and we should also allow people, the physical people to be absolutely totally undisturbed by anything, and be able to sort of move through, and had that option to be totally undisturbed so those are the big things.
Jason Hartman: That’s interesting because people I mean most people I don’t know if it’s just me. I think most people the first thing they sort of do when they start the day is they manage all their email, and that’s pretty talks oriented though. I guess it requires sometimes the emails; you need to respond in a creative fashion or think about what someone send you of course, but may be that’s not the highest and best use for that prime time of our brain power.
David: Absolutely I mean that the golden rule to creative work first is urgent important second and email everything else third, and the reason is a bit complex. But essentially creative work is required a lot of space in your brain. It requires a lot of quiet in your brain.
You know we have insights when our brain is quiet when we can notice that all connections between things, weak connections between things, and so we are doing emails as sort of like doing 50 push ups and you have only in terms of mentally and you are absolutely exhausted afterwards, and then you got to do some other exercise, and you haven’t got much left in you. Creative work first, urgent important second, and everything else after.
Jason Hartman: So most people need to flip their day around I’d assume listening to this. What about the physical space? You know I assume you are going to say keep it a sort of simple Zen like environment and not a lot of things to look at maybe or you know, I mean I say a lot of work spaces of companies that seem to be pretty effective, and they seem like they have whiteboards all over, some of them paint them on the walls. They are writing all over them. Everything is kind of like, you know there is that sort of wall room type concept of the environment where its like a wall room and you just got bulletin boards out things stuck up on the walls, lot of stuff to look at, story boarding whatever. And then there is the decorated type of officer where its may be clean and simple and nicely decorated. There is one more right than the other like what you are saying it seem like the wall room is a really bad idea.
David: Well, it depends the kind of work you are trying to do, and little things actually matter more than we realize so that comes to the physical space, and just the brain overall. You know little things really do matter as it turns out, so for example if you paint a room blue, I think it will be much more creative, high feeling makes people much more creative. There is a lot of little things like that actually help they prime the brain. You know that sort of study today that showed that just changing rooms, you know when you move rooms, its much harder to access memories that you would form in the previous room, so its also kind of quirky things that go on, but essentially if you are looking for ones that fits totally the best ones I can give you is let people design their own space.
And there is a great study showing you get about the third increase in productivity where you let people design their own workplace which is crazy, and the companies say well, let’s design it for them that’s fine, you don’t want to approach. But a third increase in productivity that’s quite a lot 30%, 33% literally just you know how do you want your space you know just personalizing. Some people like really need it clean and absolutely then some people want their family everywhere on the walls. Some people want five desks in the wall room seeing and you know every brain is really different. And given to build the autonomy to make these choices and actually it’s a reward onto itself, but people have different needs when it comes to that physical space as well, so the best rule is don’t have one is let people create this space of them self.
Jason Hartman: But that’s interesting what you said about blue. I mean there have been a lot of studies that I have heard about that showed it like pink is the color of calmness and they are painting prisons where there is a bunch of hardened criminals, you know they are painting the insides of the pink in many cases to calm everybody down so they are not violent and you know what is blue the color or green?
David: You know what they are not violent. They are — I’m trying to imagine the criminals. They are not violent. But they are deeply embarrassed probably.
Jason Hartman: Very well maybe.
David: Imagine going to jail and know that there is a pink cell you would be too embarrassed to be violent. That’s funny.
Jason Hartman: There you go. But is blue the color of creativity though?
David: It is yeah. It’s partly to do with the proximity effects. You know when you feel like you can see at a distance, and you feel like you can see a long way, and you actually, its weird, but it primes your brain to think literally big thoughts. When you are looking at the sky rather than your roof, your brain is able to sort of think further out, to think bigger thoughts, to think more systematically. It primes your brain.
Jason Hartman: I think a lot of people listening may be want to paint, get some blue paint so just before we leave the small little subject here that seems really important. Is there certain shade of blue, its sky blue is that the right color or navy or?
David: I don’t want to be too prescriptive. I think people did the right research on that.
Jason Hartman: Okay.
David: But that something that is pleasing to the eye is of course really important, and that may vary.
Jason Hartman: Sure. What are some of the things people can do to find insights and solve seemingly insurmountable problems? The problems that just, threat there is no seemingly right solution. How does one get their mind in the place where they can solve these types of problems?
David: The answer to that is really fascination, and confounding. There is really two brains. We’ve really got two brains. We’ve got a conscious brain, and a non-conscious brain, and it’s been talked about by a lot of people, lots of different frameworks, you know the elephants and the rider, and the high road, and the low all sorts of things. But essentially been a conscious brain and a non-conscious brain. And you know where we can’t solve the problem; the conscious brain goes round and round in circles on the same small set of solutions. We kind of get stuck in the same small set of solutions and not go anywhere, and what’s really interesting is those breakthrough moments when we suddenly have this kind of ah-ah something that I have studied a lot for about five years. We know a lot about now about this breakthrough moments that actually happen when the brain is quiet, and when we are not consciously trying to solve the problem.
We got to have sort of thought about the question, but trying to consciously solve the problem once we failed actually is going to reduce the likelihood of insight interestingly so what we know is quieting the brain, going a little bit internal been slightly happy, but not working directly on the problem working around it. This is the kind of state we need to be and to solve this type of problems. I wrote a paper about this, but if you look up online just had to have more insights. You will see my post on psychology today on that have to have more insights, and its — we really know a lot now about the neural state of the brain that has these breakthroughs, and there is no substitute for quiet in the brain and quiet that literally means not a lot of electrical activity going on, so its that state you have in the shower in the morning when you first wake up, but won’t have that if you do your emails before the shower.
You know your brain will be ticking over, so it’s that quiet brain that’s when we have those breakthrough moments, and kind of respecting those quiet spaces in the day, and allowing the insights to come from the non-conscious brain into the conscious brain that’s how we are trying to solve those types of problems.
Jason Hartman: Yeah very good point. How can we be more effective in collaborative situations where we really need to collaborate and harvest ideas from others and being engaged in that exchange?
David: There is a big body of work in this area. There is a whole field called Social cognitive neuroscience and a whole bunch of neuroscientists probably about 500 of them now that are studying how people interact, and what happens when we try to collaborate and I built them all of that summarizes what goes on in this, in the collaborative system that its been really, really helpful for understanding what goes wrong lot of the time. Basically there are five domains that the brain is tracking all the time. And with these five domains we are really, it’s really important that we don’t get a threat response in any of these domains. For example status is the first one. When we feel like our status is going down, when we feel it’s like getting worse, we react very, very intensely. And what the neuroscientist are finding is that something like a status threat or an autonomy threat, or a threat to a sense of relatedness to someone or a fairness threat.
And these threats actually a very, very strong, and b they activate the brain’s pain network, so feeling like someone is attacking the status actually feels in the brain is like someone is attacking with a knife, and you defend yourself accordingly. You defend yourself very, very vigorously, and this most just goes on non-consciously. So, the five domains are status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness, and those five spell out the framework called SCARF, on American its SCARF. SCARF is this five domains that either can be illustrated or be in a reward state, so you can have a increase in status that feels really motivating and its very remotivating to feel better than other people. It’s very, very motivating to increase your sense of certainty. It’s very motivating to increase your sense of relatedness etcetera, so these five domains being played out in social situations and when things go wrong it’s usually one of these five that’s come, kind of come and stuck with that people being aware of it.
Jason Hartman: So certainly then what you are saying is you are leading a team the simple old concepts of positives strokes of complementing and rewarding and all that kind of stuff I mean that’s neurologically important is what you are saying.
David: It’s critical. And the reason its critical is that our conscious mind is really, really limited and not, but not that effective on many levels, and anything we can do to increase that conscious, capacity a conscious process and capacity is helpful. Bear in mind that few people can even add up four single digits in their head you know that’s not much information. If I say to you what’s 56 plus 79 you know you could probably do it, but you rather not, and just adding up four digits is the threshold that which most people sort of can’t do things, or some can. Certainly most people don’t want to, and so making things easy for people turns out to be more important because we’ve got so little processing power particularly for new ideas. We can process existing thoughts, existing habits very easily, but new ideas take a lot of processing power and they get kind of come to decide a lot which is why you changes had as well.
Jason Hartman: But you are saying make it easy, but is the brain like muscle where it needs exercise, and atrophies if it doesn’t exercise, I mean do you want to challenge, don’t you want to challenge the brain, play chess, do crossword puzzles or whatever music?
David: I mean there is a use it all lose the thing. There is no question there is a use it or lose it in the brain. It’s not a muscle, but it’s definitely something that most functions improve with use.
Jason Hartman: Let me take a brief pause. We will be back in just a minute.
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Jason Hartman: You kind of alluded to it earlier, but in terms of when one feels their status is threatened they become less effective does that lead into any more thoughts on keeping one’s cool under pressure, under any situation?
David: Yeah I mean the big takeaway from the brain research is that emotions do really matter. And even low levels of stress have a surprisingly large effect on that cognitive capability and learning how to regulate your own emotions, but by recognizing them and being able to intervene quickly where that’s distracting your attention or changing your interpretation of situations, and doing these things quickly is really, really key, and what we know is from neuroscience is even really small threat responses something primed to people don’t even know they feel, really small fair responses actually reduced cognitive capacity in a big way especially on creativity, didn’t get a 50% reduction in creativity with the threat response people don’t even know the feeling, and so small things really matter when it comes to effectiveness.
I mentioned this earlier this is one of the kind of big findings from, big overall findings, its — I guess it’s the generalization, but we have less control over ourselves than others, than we probably realize that more influence, far more influenced in little ways over ourselves than others than far, far less control.
Jason Hartman: Your approach is from the angle of may be a manager or a leader in leading a group, and its important not to threaten ones status, and things like that, but if someone needs to say get over or something or forgive and forget or process emotions I mean can one do that more quickly I mean is it true that one can a lot of people say I need to just process these emotions and then I will be over it. I mean how does one do that? Is that really a thing that people truly do at the neuroscientific level or is it just something they talk about?
David: Now there is a price that’s called reappraisal which is very well studied in the neuroscience lab, and the appraisal is where you change your whole meaning about the situation, and we do it all the time mostly we are not aware of it. It’s a very, very important skill for dealing with strong stresses. It’s really the only skill you can use for something that’s quite stressful like you lose your job. You know you might start spiraling down into a stretch response that really, really affects your life. Depression all sorts of things, but if you can reappraise, if you are able to reappraise the situation you might get a chance then. You can reappraise it as an opportunity to decide what’s really important for your career next or an opportunity to get really healthy and connect to your family for a while, or an opportunity to downsize and simplify your life, or you know something and its going to make sense to you.
But neuroscientist have been looking at what happens when we change our interpretation of the situation and the whole emotional response follows how the biological response follows when we change an interpretation so its pretty important stuff.
Jason Hartman: Yeah that’s a very good feedback. You talked at the beginning about how difficult and how much brain power it takes to comprehend conceptual things, and I wanted to tie this into a discussion about something that has been repackaged and rewrapped as recently as four years ago or so and that is the law of attraction concept the secret that’s been around forever basically, but it regained a lot of fame recently, and what one has to do when they make it goal for themselves.
They have to visualize something that they don’t yet have. It has to be projected into the future, but they need to make it seem like its real today, so that its sort of a subconscious mind can grasp it may be, I mean I’m kind of saying a lot of things here so interrupt me when I’m wrong or correct me. But is this quite so hard to set and achieve goals because one has to get their head around a concept that is, isn’t there yet like you said it’s grasping a concept. It takes a lot more power than a physical thing.
David: Yeah that’s partly it, and there is been some good studies on the fact that more a goal is proximal, or more the goal feels close to you know both physically and in time, the more motivated you are, and its just being some people researching that, so yeah definitely you know goals that are really in the future intangible its hard to picture them. We can’t picture something.
We don’t have an emotional response to it as strong as what we can picture it. Its not very well if I said I was a lion you are not going to get much of a response, but if you actually picture a lion about to jump at out, or we showed you a picture of that physically a picture you will get a biological response, so hearing something doesn’t get a strong response seeing it, really does back to that first point so.
Jason Hartman: So visual so when they saw the concept of visualization of course, you want to may be “visualize” a goal with as many senses a possible and as much sensory input as possible, but really vision that is without a doubt our richest sense right that we are beyond our hearing and our touch and everything else. Visual is the biggie right?
David: And people will say I’m a visual person. I’m an auditory person. I’ve got this learning style. Learning styles has been debunked. There is no such thing as learning styles. There are definitely tendencies and people have preferences, use in iPhone for a month, and you got a definite tendency to prefer using iPhones, just half of those got, that doesn’t mean you’ve got an iPhone style brain. It’s something you do over and over will become a bit of tendency, but in the brain there are two ways of processing data.
You know audio and visual that’s what we had and the visual just hold so much more information and in the brain it’s a huge amount of more real estate. It’s like an enormous shopping mall versus a single store in terms of kind of the square footage, so visual is the huge shopping mall, and auditory is the single store. So, there is a lot more connections you can make. There is a lot more neurons involved. There is a lot more circuits created when you hold visuals than when you hold the sound.
Jason Hartman: That’s interesting and I want to believe in every way that that’s absolutely correct. The only area that I sort of question is the power of music. Being so powerful and you know that’s auditory, and so it’s kind of interesting.
David: I had an impact.
Jason Hartman: I guess the best songs though make people visualize stuff.
David: That’s true as well. I mean it’s not to say that vision that sounds aren’t effective. I mean I could play all sorts of sounds in the lab that would make you an echo. I mean you know the sound of singing out from a chalkboard will definitely have an emotional impact on people, so their visuals that are impactful and their sounds are impactful can’t so much compare them, but when it comes to — when it comes to the strength of the circuit it just the physical real estate is much more stronger, so I think the — you know we’ve got — we’ve goals. There is a number of challenges with goals. One is often we can’t see them, and we don’t sort of the two often the distance. And other challenge is we often say goals in a negative way. We said avoidance goal instead of approached goals. And we need to really learn to fit, approach goals that we go towards, rather than away from.
Jason Hartman: Yeah very good point, couple of last things here before we wrap up. Providing feedback to people that can be difficult and trying and may be its not possible at all. I don’t know what you are going to say, but is it possible or can we be more effective at changing other peoples behavior, so feedback in changing other peoples behavior especially I think bosses and parents never going to want to break up with those two.
David: Yeah absolutely. I mean we all wanted to tell people how to fix themselves, and it’s a great way of creating the status rate, and having people shutdown. You know my framework for feedback is actually don’t give feedback until its positive. Give self directed feet forward which is, is to help people give themselves feedback about the way forward. And it’s just a much more effective way of creating behavior change than telling people what they have done wrong.
Jason Hartman: Can you give an example of that? That was a really interesting statement.
David: Yeah sure. Yeah absolutely, I mean you go to a sales meeting with someone. You are managing a salesperson. You go to the sales meeting, and they haven’t done so great, and come out afterwards, then you start telling them all the things that will do wrong and they will argue with you, and will feel really bad or whatever. But instead of that you can give self direction feet forward which is you can say the person if you were doing that again you know you are a smart person, you probably learn a lot all the time. If you are going to do that again what would you do differently next time what learning did you take out of that? And I will give you people a chance to kind of tell on themselves around this.
You get a whole different set of circuits created, and it’s a reward response instead of a threat response, so it’s a different you know it’s a qualitatively different experience to do self directed feet forward than feedback. One creates a threat and shuts people down. One creates a reward and hopefully creates new connections. It doesn’t mean it works every time, but we found about three quarters of the time. This approach works which means you know you got a lot less. It means you got 25% as many arguments. It happens now.
Jason Hartman: Very good point. So the book is entitled Your Brain At Work: Strategies for Overcoming Distraction Regaining Focus and Working Smarter All Day Long.` David tell people where they can learn more?
David: Neuroleadership.com has the programs that I offer on the brain and coaching programs, letting to be a certified coach, and work we do at organizations and neuroleadership.org has a whole range of programs for individuals to discover the brain as a change agent, so there is a post graduate certificate masters degree and things like that. And there is an annual summer that we run, at neuroleadership.org, so a couple of different sites, the academic and research site neuroleadership.org, neuroleadership.com more of a commercial side and organizational work, and then my own site davidrock.net for the papers that I have written, and books I published etcetera so those are few resources for you there to enjoy.
Jason Hartman: Fantastic Doctor David Rock, thank you so much for joining us today. Appreciate having you on the show.
David: Thanks so much for your interest in this work, all the best.
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The Speaking of Wealth Team
Transcribed by: Renee’