On this Flash Back Friday show, originally published in May 2017 as episode 837 Jason brings on Mike Zlotnik, Managing Director of Tempo Funding. They discuss the factors that will lead to an economic downturn. They go into why combining real estate and leverage are the best hedge against inflation and discourage individuals to invest in institutions.
Jason Hartman 0:00
Today’s flashback Friday comes from Episode 837. Originally published in May 2017. Welcome to this week’s edition of flashback Friday, your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason is hand picked to help you today in the present, and propel you into the future. Enjoy.
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it on Now, here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 1:11
Welcome to the creating wealth show. This is your host Jason Hartman with episode number 837 837. Thank you so much for joining me today. We always appreciate you tuning in three times a week, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Friday is kind of a special day flashback Friday. And then of course, you know that every 10th episode, we go off topic and we talked about something of general interest, sometimes that lands on a flashback Friday, and we repeat one of our Ken’s show episodes, but mostly it doesn’t. I guess we would need a mathematician to kind of figure out how that works. It’s it’s almost like an algorithm, right? It happens a few times a year. Speaking of which, Today we’ve got one of the brightest mathematical minds. I know with us today and he is our venture Alliance member and that is Mr. Mike Slotnick, who is a hard money lender. He is a founder of Temple
Mike Zlotnik 2:04
funding. Mike, welcome. How you doing? Hi, Jason, thank you for having me.
Jason Hartman 2:08
It’s good to have you here. You’re coming to us from the Big Apple. You’re actually outside of the Big Apple. Well, I don’t know. It’s Brooklyn, the Big Apple. Is that
Mike Zlotnik 2:16
considered New York City? Do you call it New York City? Absolutely. Brooklyn is a part of New York City. And did you know that there are more people who live in Brooklyn and Manhattan?
Jason Hartman 2:26
I did not know that. I guess. That’s because man hands more business and office than residential right?
Mike Zlotnik 2:32
That’s right. But But New York City is composed the five boroughs. The island, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan and Bronx. That’s the Big Apple.
Jason Hartman 2:41
See, folks, we’re getting a geography lesson here today. This is good. I want to ask you about the economy a little bit and you know, the sitting in your chair, and doing what you do all day financing, real estate deals. You’ve got a unique perspective. I would just love for you to share a little bit bit of that with your listeners. Today, we will be playing a clip from a live event that I did time permitting. If not, we’ll play it next week. Let’s just dive in a little bit and talk about, you know, what you see going on in the marketplace, you talked to me a lot about cap rate compression, as you call it, or yield compression. And I’d like to, you know, give our listeners a little insight a little definition on what that means first and insight into what’s happening and why it’s happening and, and some thoughts and predictions for the future of interest rates, inflation, etc. So, Mike, tell our listeners what you mean about yield compression and cap rate compression?
Mike Zlotnik 3:40
Sure, Jason. So your compression is simply reduction of the yield that investors receive on the investment for the same level of risk that they take. So you invest your capital and before used to make 10%. Now you make 9% and the day after tomorrow, you’re going to make 8% It’s a The event that happens when there’s a lot of capital chasing the same deal flow, and the capital is willing to take less of a return, because there’s more capital and there’s less supply or yield. Right? So it’s simply the
Jason Hartman 4:13
the supply demand curve that dictates or causes yield compression or yield expansion. It’s similar to inflation. Because the way you said that Mike was interesting, it was almost really sort of that classic reason that inflation occurs, right? You have a increasing supply of dollars, or whatever, fiat currency chasing a limited supply of assets. So this is what happens in the investing world. There’s a ton of capital out there chasing deals, whether they be the physical assets wanting to buy a property, and certainly we’re seeing that. I mean, in my career of dealing with 100% investors starting in 2004, the is now my 13th year of doing this. And of course, I’ve been in the real estate business longer, but just on the investor only side for the past 13 plus years. This is one of the lowest inventory times I have ever seen, inventory is very scarce because you have huge amounts of capital chasing in a limited supply of assets. So of course on our side, on the physical asset side, the actual property ownership side, you see the yields compressing right, you see lower cash on cash returns, lower cap rates, lower overall return on investment. But I tell you, it’s like I said to one of our investors who actually was on the podcast A few years ago, that’s Drew, we just traded voxer messages on this the other day, he said, I can’t find any good deals, I’ve got capital I want to invest and I want to buy more properties. And you know, just none of these deals look that great and I’m like drew You know, just wait a few years and those deals are gonna look awesome. It always happens that way. You know, we always have to the psychology always lags the market, doesn’t it? in it Do you find that true with with your investors with yours, they’re not buying the hard money or they’re not buying the hard asset, the property. They’re just putting money into financing a deal for somebody else loaning the money, right?
Mike Zlotnik 6:23
Well, that’s right. But it’s very similar to what you mentioned. It is capital chasing deals and in our case, we’ll make our hard money loan. It’s still a property that secures the loan. In as there are a number of properties out there on the market. Going down, there’s the reduction of inventory. The capital available to finance these properties, is still abundant in the consequences that the rates borrowers pay on these hard money loans are coming down. That’s the same concept as people are buying properties. The owners of the property seeing you compression the return for cash from cash returns is compressing cap rates in the lending space exactly the same effect they can place the lenders and receiving lower rate of return on their capital. That’s the same concept, both parties sort of suffering.
Jason Hartman 7:18
Why is this happens though? I mean, is there suddenly more capital than there was three years ago? I mean, what happened?
Mike Zlotnik 7:27
I think both the deal flow was much more abundant after the crash of 2008 2009. In this deal, flow was abundant. The capital was scarce. Everybody was scared to put the money in the market both in equity deals or deals. And over the years, as economy recovered, more and more people fed looking for deals and the low hanging fruit has been picked. The deal flow has sort of slow down the short sale slow down the road. Property inventory is reduced to an inventory site. There are fewer deals and they’re harder to find deals. And then on the lending side, there’s been major inflow of capital and the Wall Street, sort of entering the industry in the form of hedge fund capital. Providing liquidity to a lot of bigger, harder money, originators, and they’re coming in, in droves offering cheaper and cheaper capital just to get the business. So it’s a little bit of a dangerous model for the capitals chasing deals. But it’s happening in large institutional capital has a problem of utilization. They want to put a lot of money to work and they want to do it fast. And when they do that, they care less about quality. They care about volume. And that’s unfortunate.
Jason Hartman 8:50
I’m so glad you mentioned that because we’ve talked about this on the show over the years of how into large amounts of institutional capital flow. Going into the real estate market are flowing in that any asset class for that matter, will accept really low, meager returns. And that’s always blown my mind because I always thought, you know, the more money I have, the better deal I should get. But that’s actually counterintuitive. That’s actually not necessarily true. In fact, I’d say, arguably, maybe most of the time, it’s the opposite. Because when they have so much capital to deploy, you know, the old saying is what gets what gets rewarded gets repeated, right? They get rewarded for deploying capital for investing that money. And if some fund manager has $200 million, sitting on the sideline, and it’s not invested, they’re in trouble, right? It’s kind of like it’s kind of like, you know, backwards thinking in a way it’s sort of the way government works, right? Every year every every friend of mine I know or and every person I’ve ever talked to that is a government contractor whether they sell computers or whatever to the government, right? every fall, when you know, these agencies need to spend money because if they don’t spend all their budget, then they can’t ask for an increase, or they won’t even get the same budget, their budget will be reduced the following year. So they just spend wildly and stupidly to, in essence, deploy capital. And the sort of the same thing happens with these big institutional investors, which is why listeners the lesson what’s the lesson here, right? The lesson is, if you are investing with one of these institutional investors, and you’re the little pond putting your life savings, your retirement money in with them, look at how how they’re doing it right there. They’re not really coming through deals. I mean, when we’ve had, you know, when we haven’t had many of them, but we’ve had a few hedge funds and private equity groups over the years buying properties from us. You know, they’re not picky. Let me tell you, they just buy stuff. Because they it just doesn’t matter. Right? If they pay 10 grand too much for a house that is somewhat like in the big picture to them, it’s meaningless. But if you’re if you’re the investor in that fund, then hey, you know, there There goes your your return, right?
Mike Zlotnik 11:19
Yeah, I wanted to comment on this. So pretty simple. They get paid
Mike Zlotnik 11:25
for doing deals, they’re not getting paid necessarily for performance. So every time they originate the put the money to work, they collect the fee. From their perspective, they need these fees. They don’t really care if they’re lending the money at 7% rate 8% 9%. As long as the money is coming out. They’re collecting the fees. So sort of these origination fees is what they care about, and it is counterintuitive. We take an opposite approach. We want to make sure that our investors return risk adjusted return is maximized. So we can hear about putting the money that helps your rate. Because a small operator, we pay attention, the big shops Don’t they have so much money to deploy, that the money burns a hole in the pocket. If it sits idle, it’s a bigger problem for them then putting it to work at the rates that are lower than they should be. This is
Jason Hartman 12:18
counter intuitive folks. Most people would not think of it this way. And that’s almost like, you know, the bigger the fund, the more meager the returns they will accept. Oddly, you think I don’t know maybe it’s just me, but I would think it’d be the opposite. I would think if I have a ton of money, I’m gonna get a volume discount, I’m gonna get a bulk discount, right? Not true. It’s, it’s opposite, you know.
Mike Zlotnik 12:46
The only other quick thought here is that
Mike Zlotnik 12:50
new compression has been happening the last couple of years who continues to take place in What’s strange is we don’t know where the bottom is, the more I speak with people Interest appears that the, the greed of the Wall Street and the desire to just put the money to work exceeds a reasonable thinking. So they’re flooding the market with with capital and the consequences, obviously, they’re going to inflate asset inflation and one day it can the balloon can pop in. So it It sure can and it sure will, what goes up must come down, you know, and this is why
Jason Hartman 13:27
I say, as on the real estate side of this, I mean, of course, you’re talking about the stock market and stuff I know, to large extent but on the real estate side of it Look, be in the linear conservative markets, because there you don’t have a big bubble pop a risk. But if you are in these high flying markets, boy why watch out because number one, I know for sure. You bought assets or you’re thinking of buying assets that don’t make sense today you buy them, they don’t cash flow. You’re a speculator, I think capital appreciation investor. And, you know, commandment number five is Thou shalt not gamble. So the nice conservative yield oriented investments are the thing to do. Mike, we talked a little bit. You know, we’ve talked a lot over the years and at the venture Alliance meetings and so forth. We’ve got one coming up. I’ll see you in Chicago here real soon, about three weeks away, but what do you think, you know, what’s your take on sort of where the economy is now? The Trump administration inflation, deflation, interest rates? Yeah, I think you’re like me that you believe inflation is coming right?
Mike Zlotnik 14:36
Yeah, absolutely. So
Jason Hartman 14:39
that’s already here. But yeah.
Mike Zlotnik 14:42
Unfortunately, what’s happening is this real simple on the on a grand scale of things US government continues to have terrible balance sheet and then every year it’s getting worse, more people retire, entitlements are growing and the federal Budget continues to get worse and worse. What’s the only solution the flood you know the borrow more and the unfunded liabilities become real liabilities and the consequence of it is just more money chasing all kinds of assets. So that’s a classic inflation because of the more capital is out there getting printed every year the Federal Reserve Bank’s just printing capital printing money and
Mike Zlotnik 15:25
so I think that’s that’s happening everywhere.
Mike Zlotnik 15:29
As far as
Mike Zlotnik 15:32
you know, your day in and day out, asset inflation will New York City is booming, but I cannot burn not everywhere else. And I can tell you because we know we all have hard money lender we in various markets. The market is softening up so give example Miami, we’re already seeing significant slowdown in the condo market is already
Jason Hartman 15:53
flop is beginning to show up in the consequence of there’s going to be some level of corruption in the system. Hot markets. No no question about it. Get ready folks because it’s coming I I told you a million times there’s you know, there’s no way any of these markets aren’t way past their fundamentals, these high flying cyclical markets, you know, Miami, New York, LA washington dc you know, the the West Coast just anywhere, you know, Boston, blah blah, blah, they go on and on Paris, New York or not, I mentioned New York, Hong Kong, etc, etc. Right? Yeah. Dubai.
Mike Zlotnik 16:34
Yeah, but I I will beg to differ just about all the new york city could I know the market? I know you always say national market Mayor city seems to be a pretty strong although the the countable continues in one day will slow down so it’s inevitable. People can be paying for the square foot what they’re paying now. It’s almost like gotta watch the movie called the rent rent control. Talking about New York City and your listeners. Oh, I didn’t
Jason Hartman 17:00
know that that oh boy, I’d probably be screaming at the TV if I watch that. A rent control. It’s such a scam. Yeah, very interesting. Very interesting. I do need to see that. I didn’t know there was is that a documentary? Yeah, it’s an old movie classic. It’s a comedy. It’s a great, great movie. I don’t know anybody who will not enjoy this movie. But talking about New York City.
Mike Zlotnik 17:21
But as inflation continues here, people paying more and more, I think there’s more money in people’s pockets. So this definitely appears to be more capital chasing deals in there are fewer fewer asset classes. So foreign capital continues to flow into New York needs to park somewhere, you know, conversation with folks who live in different countries in just they just don’t want to keep the money there. That’s why the money flows here. It’s really safe to have the capital.
Jason Hartman 17:49
Well, you you’ve you’ve certainly seen that in Vancouver too. And that market is changing quite a bit but it’s been one of these high flying places. And the amazing thing is and this just is such a test to meant for how good America is as a place to invest. I mean, even though it’s all messed up and got a ton of problems, but comparatively right, that wealthy foreigners use us real estate as a bank, quite literally. And my building where I live in Las Vegas is you know, and Mike, you’ve been to my house here. You know when when you and Elizabeth and Fernando and I met here and we had a like a day long meeting at my house during our venture lines trip here in Las Vegas. The last one is the amazing thing is, so many of these units are just vacant, you know that they they might be furnished they might not be furnished but the people never come here. They just buy them especially Chinese buyers. They just buy them and they use the unit as a bank. It’s It’s like putting your money in the bank. They’re not even really necessarily buying them with any huge appreciation expectation which you know, if they get it that’s icing on the cake. I don’t know that they will or they won’t. But you know, that’s a different discussion. But they’re just they’re just banking, their money, you know, they’re just looking for a safe place to put it. And the US has always been known as the Brinks truck. And, you know, it can’t all be in banks. There’s a lot of bank account restrictions, right. But it’s easy to buy real estate, you know, the US is very open to FDI foreign direct investments. So, yeah, interesting, very interesting stuff.
Mike Zlotnik 19:27
So why do you think inflation is coming? GDP growth is incredibly weak, we were basically going to be a two and a quarter or two and a half will be very happy and lower low GDP. The US economy is not growing fast enough as its financial applications. And on a federal level. I mean, we I just mentioned entitlements, they’re going to continue to get worse. It’s also a massive problem on the state level, for the budgets continue to get
Mike Zlotnik 19:57
worse and worse in
Mike Zlotnik 20:00
We’re probably going to see sort of a thing called stagflation, where the salaries going to grow slower than the inflation, and the money will be chasing more assets. But the incomes are not. So it’s a bizarre scenario. But if you were to define what likely going to happen, in my opinion, speculation is the likely scenario in the United States. Strange of stagflation, that’s an ugly
Jason Hartman 20:27
scenario, it’s no fun, it means people’s standard of living will decline, but the assets will keep appreciating. So here’s a here’s a distinction I want to help the listeners with. And it’s not the first time I’ve talked about it, but it’s important. We haven’t talked about it a ton. So let’s just go into it for a moment. And you’ve alluded to it because you’ve used the phrase a few times asset inflation like, Okay, so, you know, there’s a tendency and I’m guilty of this, as well, to just say it generically inflation, right like inflation, yet, you look at the cost of consumer electronics, you look at the cost of a lot of things. And they keep getting better and cheaper, or at least they get better, they don’t get cheaper, but they get better, which in effect by the donek indexing, the amount of pleasure you get from the item, it makes it cheaper. So what what people never consider really too much. And it’s not considered in the consumer price index, in terms of inflation, but it it really hurts people and leaves them behind is that concept of asset inflation? So even though all of the consumer goods they buy in their life, clothing, electronics, might be relatively cheaper, even getting cheaper? How about trying to buy a house? How about trying to enter what I call the investor class, right? How about trying to buy a share of stock in amazon.com? Right? It’s it’s incredibly expensive. And that’s a asset inflation, right? If you want to become an investor, all the real estate has become a lot more expensive. And what that does is it leaves people out. People can’t get in that game. And if they can’t get in that game, then they’re unlikely to be able to build any real wealth. They’re always going to be on the treadmill and in the rat race, as Robert Kiyosaki puts it, right, where they’re always, you know, paycheck paycheck, save money, you know, try and save money, try and get ahead, but you never really can, because the only thing that has real leverage are investments, assets. So you’ve got to own assets. And if you have acid inflation, you get left out of the investor class, right? Nobody really considers that too much.
Mike Zlotnik 22:45
That’s right. That’s exactly right. I had conversations with a couple of friends, calculate key together in their professionals, doctors and lawyers and with strangers when they go to buy a property here in New York. Define that more and more Difficult to buy, because the income doesn’t grow fast enough as the assets price in income growth significantly lags and will continue to lag. After inflation, and they’re very different things people refer to the word inflation but inflation is two components, its income inflation, in essence, prices for goods and services and they don’t keep up.
Jason Hartman 23:24
Right? Its consumer price index CPI style inflation, which of course is always understated. But that’s another discussion understated with waiting substitution and hedonic, which I’ve talked to you about before. It’s also the asset classes, right? So it’s, it’s buying a home in which to live. It’s entering the investor class, you know, when, when the stock market is on a tear when the real estate markets on a tear. Can you even enter the investor class at all, when there’s a ton of asset inflation and it’s very deceiving, because that is not reflected in the CPI. is
Mike Zlotnik 24:01
now it’s not in the use of the right the market center of the good cash flow markets, mid America much better markets to enter than the high flying markets, it’s very hard to even enter a high flying market. You want to buy a property here in New York, well put 30% down, you’re going to barely break even on a cash flow. How does that sound? Oh, we’re not even going to break even at 30% down. You’re
Jason Hartman 24:21
kidding me. Because you’re gonna you’re gonna end up with a condo in one of those high flying markets with eight to 1200 dollar a month, HOA fees, you know, that it’s just, it just doesn’t work. I mean, it’s just out of control in those markets. I mean, it’s you just can’t even can’t even get close. You know? I mean, I think you’re being very optimistic 30% down breakeven, or, you
Mike Zlotnik 24:46
know, probably two or three family house in Brooklyn here. You could barely break even, you know, but you’re right. Macondo forget, terrible. Now what’s interesting is the appreciation has been very spotty the candles, appreciate it. In comparison to housing in in Brooklyn, housing and appreciate much more, though,
Jason Hartman 25:06
you know me I don’t like condos. I mean, I’m not saying I’ll never buy one but the deals got to be awfully good to look at a condo. So it’s interesting though, Mike, do you think there’s really going to be that much stagnation in the wages? I think there definitely are some factors against that. But one of them I think is for it is our child president in an adult body and that’s Trump. Okay. You know, who’s who’s really surprisingly mature. See there, I said it folks don’t think I’m some big Trump fan over here. Okay. I don’t want to hear that anymore. I’m not I am very critical of Trump. But I do think we’re gonna see some decent wages growth under Trump because, you know, you get an immigration under control, which means you stop importing deflationary pressures on the labor market, and it is protectionist trade policy. occur. I think that’s going to be more American jobs. You know, this is it’s always a trade off, isn’t
Mike Zlotnik 26:06
it? Yeah, maybe the top is inflationary for incomes in theory, right will the immigration policy but the the money’s got to come from somewhere in income typically grow as corporate earnings accelerate. corporations pay more they they’re able to hire more more more folks. And the grand scheme of things is GDP GDP doesn’t grow fast enough. Where is the excess capital going to come from to pay people higher salary?
Mike Zlotnik 26:39
So if me maybe I’m either wrong.
Jason Hartman 26:42
Well, I think it comes out of price growth. I mean, if the companies raise prices through inflation, then they have more money to pay in salaries. I mean, you know, it’s just going to hit they’re gonna have to, if he can’t keep importing cheap labor from south of the border to create this fake deflation pressure, which, in my opinion, is my big conspiracy theory that I’ve been espousing for over 10 years now about why, you know, why won’t anybody control the board? Right? The reason they don’t want to, because it, letting the immigration occur, makes inflation seem lower. It makes it seem like there’s no inflationary pressure that is definitely baked in to the terrible fiscal policies we’ve had for the last 50 years. But it’s baked in. But you know, if you if you import cheap goods from Asia, right, and you import cheap labor from Mexico, that’s going to tame the inflation monster that really is baked into the cake. And they that’s a good way to hide it. I mean, it’s a pretty good business plan for government, I can totally understand why they do it.
Mike Zlotnik 27:49
Well, yeah, I mean, you’re right. There might be some inflationary pressure, but they will have to watch what happened for the interest rate. So if they let inflation accelerate little too much interest rates going to start climbing. And that’ll cause all kinds of grief, including the debt service on the US national debt that’s going to, it’s going to be a potentially spiral per se. So I actually believe in a grand conspiracy theory where the interest rate can’t really go up a lot because you’ve come with can’t afford it. So they need to be alone. They need to keep increases the Social Security beneficiaries low in need to keep interest rates low to sustain the
Mike Zlotnik 28:35
Mike Zlotnik 28:37
Jason Hartman 28:39
But But overall, you do think interest rates are on their way up, right?
Mike Zlotnik 28:44
temporarily, they can make him go up too much. So I mean, this was sort of a good year for you estate, from the point of view that the high interest rate obviously impact real estate negatively. But I just can’t see the interest rates climbing too much and it can get into and normalized point where the 30 year mortgages 6%. I don’t think we’re going to see that in the near future. Yeah, so it’s, you know, who knows who knows what happens to it, but we have to prepare for this scenario for high interest rates and low interest rate in real estate seems to be the best class to hedge against inflation or
Jason Hartman 29:26
even deflation is low real estate as well, too. So, yeah, no, it’s it’s an it’s an amazing asset class because it’s multi dimensional. And if we see higher interest rates, that will that will cause a downward pressure on real estate prices, but it will cause upward pressure on real estate rents. So you know, the beautiful thing about income properties, you can always adjust your strategy. You can do that with a big expensive home in which you live okay? There you can’t adjust the strategy, but with the the income property you can and that’s That’s another reason your home is not an asset. You know, you can’t do this stuff with stocks or bonds or any other investment. It’s a very, very unique investment. And speaking of investments, we got to wrap it up. But Mike, your company basically does hard money lending. So if any of our listeners need financing for properties that they’re buying, or are interested in financing properties even though there’s like, no properties to finance, basically, because there’s so much capital chasing so few deals and and, you know, the other problem with a hard money lending nowadays, is the properties. They don’t keep the loans long enough. You know, they repaid them so quickly because the property sells so fast. That it’s it’s a challenge to keep your your money in the game, right?
Mike Zlotnik 30:45
Yeah, I mean, in today’s day and age, you’re right. There’s more money chasing deals and utilizing, utilizing well available capitalism a little bit harder than before. We do a couple of things. We have to do hard money loans. Just to be clear, we only finance short duration bridge loans for fix and flip or fixing refight projects, we don’t do any long term loans. We have always a focus on the short duration, but also have a long term investment fund where we take advantage of the interesting. They were tried opportunities and we invest for long term projects in the mid in the mid states, not not coastal markets in these non sexy non interesting city never heard about sometimes, and sometimes you heard of these cities, but the projects we invest in are not your sexy projects. And these projects generally perform better in a downturn and this point, we’re still in the last leg of the, of the growth. So. So that’s what we do. We try to we try to put the money to work on great projects and maximize the risk adjusted return.
Jason Hartman 31:54
Yeah, I mean, Mike, I’m glad you said that, you know, as a general rule in life, it’s not always true, but as a very general Rule, sort of a first cut rule, the sexier the deal is, the lower the returns will be, you know, if it’s a trophy property in Newport Beach, California, you’re just not going to get the return that you’re going to get for that, you know, not so sexy property in Indianapolis or Memphis or Atlanta or, you know, wherever, right, you know, in any of the markets, you’ll find that Jason Hartman com slash properties, right, those those aren’t as sexy, but the returns are better and they’re more solid. Hey, Mike, I look forward to seeing you in Chicago in about three weeks for our venture Alliance mastermind meeting, folks. We have two events coming up, of course, the venture Alliance mastermind meeting, you can go to venture Alliance mastermind calm or Jason Hartman. com, click on events. And check that out. Talk to your investment counselor in our firm if you have one, or just reach out to us through the website. And then also, we’ve got our Oklahoma City, Jason Hartman University live which is where you really dive into the numbers. Dive into acquisition strategies on properties. And we’re going to do something new at this event. We’re going to do some panel discussions at the j. h you live coming up in Oklahoma City in July. We also have a property to our combined with that as well. So we’re going to tour some great properties. I think you should definitely attend those two events. So check those out at Jason hartman.com on the events section. And Mike, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate having you
Mike Zlotnik 33:29
Jason. Thank you kindly looking forward to see in Chicago at the venture alliance in a couple of weeks.
Jason Hartman 33:36
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